sewer water coming out of open sewer lines?

JeffInFL · Mon May 13, 2013 10:17 am

I have a toilet, master bath sink and kitchen sink removed, and the sewer lines/connections above the subfloor are just sitting there open. When running the washing machine, water started coming up out of of the toilet sewer line. I'm assuming it's when the machine drained all of it's water.

Being the crafty craftsman that I am, I plugged the sewer hole with a big Wendy's soda cup. Next time the washer was run, the water came up through the kitchen sink sewer line instead (which is about 2" off the floor"). The master bath sewer plumbing is still in place (P trap and whatnot) and hasn't had a problem.

Is the backup happening because the drains are open, and the expelled washing machine water is just taking the path of least resistance? I don't believe this was happening prior to removing the sinks and toilet.

The septic tank is at one end of the trailer, and the master bath is at the other end. The washer is located in about the middle. The kitchen sink is between the washer and toilet, closer to the washer.

Greg · Mon May 13, 2013 4:35 pm

It does sound to me like the open drains may be the problem, the washer is actually pumping the water into the lines. If you can pour a gallon of water down the lines with no problems than I would think the system is OK. If not you may need to run a snake down the lines.

Greg

countrydan · Mon May 13, 2013 4:51 pm

i know with our trailer the kitchen and washing machine drain lines all get routed to the master bathroom's toilet line. when i pulled the toilet i can see the kitchen drain water draining into a t fitting about 6" below the floor connected the the main toilet drain line that is prob 4" diameter. i would run the kitchen sink for awhile and remove the wendy's cup and watch what happens. you must have a clog or slow drain issue and most likely will need to snake it. its ez enough now that the toilet is off.

i am sure the trailer is made this way for easier site connections since the kitchen/wash drain runs back to the master bathroom, which is at the opposite end of our septic..

Greg S · Mon May 13, 2013 5:53 pm

Water naturally will take the path of least resistance. That would be down hill. If it is coming up then there is one of two causes, either the drain lines are too small to handle the waste, which will not be the case if they are 4" or larger, or the drain lines are partially blocked. Partially blocked would be my first guess and will likely get worse in time.
In light of the fact that you have all the lines open there would be more than enough air behind the water to insure fast flow so I would be looking for a fairly significant restriction in the drain line to cause water to defy gravity.

JeffInFL · Tue May 14, 2013 6:59 am

Thanks for the replies! As far as I know, there were no issues prior to removing the toilet and sinks. I know we ran the water at all fixtures at one point or another, and nothing was backing up. However, I don't think we ran the washing machine before all the fixtures were removed.

Last night, I plugged up the kitchen sink drain with a rag, and when the washer was run we had water come out of the bathtub drain instead.

If anything, I think there may be a slight blockage closest to the septic tank. I think I'll buy or rent a snake before putting in the new toilets and sinks and do my best to clean out the lines just in case.

ponch37300 · Tue May 14, 2013 8:13 am

We have a bathroom on each end of the house and the kitchen and laundry is in the middle of the house. The way our drains run is the kitchen sink drain is run to the laundry area and then over to the master bath and joins in with the toilet drain. Then we have two 4" drains from each toilet to the sewer hook up in the center of our trailer.

The washer drains a lot of water at one time. Also the drain for it is a couple feet off the floor. So if your drains are cut off close to the floor right now and there is more water then what can smoothly drain, either blocked or just too much water at one time, then it will come out those lower drains. I would have thought that if there was a problem that it would have came out the shower before since that drain is low, but if you didn't run the washer before I guess you wouldn't know.

They do make these plugs, http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing/h_d1/ ... chNav=true, you cans scroll down and see the different style. I have a few in different sizes and use them when working on things to keep the sewer gases out of the house since they are free to enter if you cut the trap off. These should prevent the water from coming out of the lower drains while you are working on them. Just make sure you still have a vent of some sort to allow the water to drain.

JeffInFL · Tue May 14, 2013 8:49 am

thanks Ponch .. I have a similar setup with my layout, and the washer drain being up off the floor around 3' or so.

I'll see if I can find the plugs at HD .. gotta go at lunch and pick up a few more rolls of insulation. I'm curious now to see if the bathtub closest to the septic tank backs up if all other drains are plugged.

ponch37300 · Wed May 15, 2013 8:56 pm

I'm kind of interested in what you found out if anything with this?

JeffInFL · Thu May 16, 2013 7:10 am

I haven't messed with it yet .. the shut off valve for the cold water line going to the washing machine is turned off, and the handle is busted off, so we haven't done laundry since my original post.

JeffInFL · Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:47 am

I finally got around to capping off the open drain line in the master bathroom .. at this point, all open drain lines (master bath tub, master bath toilet and kitchen sink) are capped off. So we did a load of laundry, and water backed up in the other bathtub

So either my septic tank needs pumped, or there's some type of blockage in the pipe that goes from under the house to the septic tank.

JeffInFL · Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:30 am

Had a septic guy stop out the other day .. he popped the lid off and said right away that it's not full, and the line is probably backed up somewhere.

I can see the PVC pipe that goes from the house to the septic tank. I drilled a hole in the top of it, had my gf run some water in the bathtub, and the water in the sewer line didn't move at all. I ran a snake from the hole to the septic tank with no problem, and as far as I could in the other direction but it stops after 6 feet or so when it hits a Y shaped pipe that has a cleanout port or whatever it's called.

I can't really get to the pipes under the house (well, I can, but I don't want to crawl under there) so I cut an access panel in the kitchen subfloor so I can access the sewer pipes under the house. There are 2 pipes of the same diameter (4" maybe?) that look like they run from one end of the house to the other. The pipes are nearly on top of each other, offset by maybe 6" or so.

I drilled a hole in the upper pipe, and water and sewage came out as if the pipe was under pressure. After a few minutes, it stopped. I tried to snake it as far as I could, but it seems to stop at a certain point (not a clog, but the pipe stops or it can't make a turn).

I drilled a hole in the lower pipe after that, and same thing .. water and sewage came out like it was under pressure, then stopped after a few minutes. I also snaked that as far as I could, and didn't seem to hit any clogs.

So, why else would things entering the sewer stop before hitting the septic tank? I can only assume there's a clog somewhere, but I don't quite understand this 2 pipe setup and where it can be clogged.

Greg S · Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:15 pm

Not sure why you have two parallel drain lines so you will need to map out their runs to determine their purpose. I would guess you will need to get under the house.
As far as snaking is concerned there is no reason the snake would not go past bends in the pipe. Measure the length of snake in the pipe and figure out where it stops under the home.

Was the home a repo or eviction by any chance ? Vindictive individuals will often sabotage septic lines with cement.

ponch37300 · Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:32 pm

I'm a little confused about your 2 pipe setup also. I believe you said you have a bathroom on each end of the house? Do they both become one in the middle of the house and then go to the septic? And you're saying that basically you have a "double" 4" drain from each end of the house? Some pictures would be worth more than a thousand words. Specifically how these pipes go into the ground and into your house. Can you see where they are joined? I don't know a lot about septics but could the top one be some sort of "wet vent" for the septic that is plugged and not allowing the lower drain to flow? What advice did the septic guy have for you?

If you drilled holes in the pipes and water came out under pressure then stopped that means there is standing water in those pipes and it's higher then where you drilled. Take your toilets off the flange and snake from there, it will allow you easy access to snake the main part of the drains. A new wax ring is only a few dollars to replace the toilets back in place.

Where did you snake from? My guess is you have a pretty good blockage somewhere between where you drilled and the septic. What type of snake did you use, just a hand one with a little head on it? Might have a partial blockage that will "funnel" a smaller snake head threw the passage but a large amount of water gets stuck? Don't remember if this was discussed already but one thing to check is your vents, either the AAVs that are usually under sinks and tubs or vents that go out threw the roof. If these are stuck it can create a vacuum and prevent or slow down drainage.

How are you planning on "patching" your holes you drilled? I'm hooked up to sewer and don't have much experience with septics or how your drains go into the septic but I have one sewer hook up in the middle of our MH and a 4" drain coming from each end of the trailer into this at ground level. If I had a blockage somewhere in those 4" drains and I couldn't figure it out I think I would just cut them out and plumb new in. PVC is fairly cheap and easy to work with.

JeffInFL · Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:05 am

Greg S wrote:Was the home a repo or eviction by any chance ? Vindictive individuals will often sabotage septic lines with cement.

No, it's been owned by my g/f's family.

JeffInFL · Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:22 am

ponch37300 wrote:I'm a little confused about your 2 pipe setup also. I believe you said you have a bathroom on each end of the house? Do they both become one in the middle of the house and then go to the septic? And you're saying that basically you have a "double" 4" drain from each end of the house? Some pictures would be worth more than a thousand words. Specifically how these pipes go into the ground and into your house. Can you see where they are joined? I don't know a lot about septics but could the top one be some sort of "wet vent" for the septic that is plugged and not allowing the lower drain to flow? What advice did the septic guy have for you?

Yes, there's a bathroom at each end of the house. The kitchen sink is gone, and I snaked that drain. The snake ended up coming out of the toilet drain (the toilet was removed this past weekend). So there is a 3rd pipe (smaller than the other 2) that connects at least the kitchen sink and bathroom toilet. I didn't snake in the other direction, but I won't be surprised if that pipe also goes the length of the trailer to the other bathroom.

If you drilled holes in the pipes and water came out under pressure then stopped that means there is standing water in those pipes and it's higher then where you drilled. Take your toilets off the flange and snake from there, it will allow you easy access to snake the main part of the drains. A new wax ring is only a few dollars to replace the toilets back in place.

I drilled the hole at the very top of the pipe .. like if you were standing over it and looking down. Once I pierced the pipe, water gushed out as if the pipe was under pressure. After a few minutes, it stopped. I did have the toilet removed this weekend, and fed a 50' snake starting at the toilet with no problems.

Where did you snake from? My guess is you have a pretty good blockage somewhere between where you drilled and the septic. What type of snake did you use, just a hand one with a little head on it? Might have a partial blockage that will "funnel" a smaller snake head threw the passage but a large amount of water gets stuck? Don't remember if this was discussed already but one thing to check is your vents, either the AAVs that are usually under sinks and tubs or vents that go out threw the roof. If these are stuck it can create a vacuum and prevent or slow down drainage.

I snaked the outside pipe that goes from the house to the septic tank. It went into the septic side with no problem, but when it goes to the house it hits a "Y" shaped pipe that has one leg capped off, and the snake can't make the turn due to the pipe's shape. It looks like this:

On the "straight" side, one end goes to the septic (the bottom of the "y" in the above pic), and the other end is capped off. So when I feed the snake in, it hits the cap and can't make the turn to go under the house.

How are you planning on "patching" your holes you drilled? I'm hooked up to sewer and don't have much experience with septics or how your drains go into the septic but I have one sewer hook up in the middle of our MH and a 4" drain coming from each end of the trailer into this at ground level. If I had a blockage somewhere in those 4" drains and I couldn't figure it out I think I would just cut them out and plumb new in. PVC is fairly cheap and easy to work with.

Right now they're plugged with wine corks lol.. they fit perfectly. Replacing the whole deal is definitely not out of the question but will be my last resort. I'll try to get under the house this weekend to get a better idea of how these pipes are routed.

Thanks for your input!!