Pipes blew up, pex question

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hhb
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:14 pm

Brief back story: I bought a repo'd 25 year old mini home, moved it to my own lot that already had a well & septic (old house burnt down 6 years ago). The well had a black, red & yellow wire going down it (submersible pump), so I assumed a "3 wire" with the ground being ignored (it's already in the ground, I've heard that's how they used to do it). I wired it up with a control box, and nothing worked. Call the well company, turns out they used a 2 wire pump and just used yellow for ground, must have had old wire laying around or something. Anyhow, wired it properly, worked great, tons of nice clear water.

Now, unbeknown to me, this mini home sat all winter unheated (I'm in Canada). So when I hooked the well up to the plumbing and turned on the pump, BLAMO, water everywhere. The pipes must have been full of water and froze. Big leak under the bath tub especially. Also, this MH has a master bedroom with an ensuite on one end, opposite of all the other plumbing. The pipes for that bathroom go under the floor joists, wrapped in foam insulation, covered in another layer of fibreglass and then belly canvas. Water was spurting underneath from one end to another. I got under the MH today, and started slicing the canvas... felt like I was gutting a whale as the sopping wet pink flesh popped out along my cut. What a mess, but I have to get rid of all that soaked fibreglass.

This MH has all copper pipes. Sorry, had copper. After chasing a leak here and there, I decided the safest thing was to cut all of it out and replace it with pex. So now I'm into a total plumbing job. The plumbing in the main part is easy; it's all inside, the kitchen, bathroom/laundry surround the water heater closet. There's a chase in the bathroom to run the pipes to the sink.

Now my question: short of turning the master ensuite into another storage closet (thought crossed my mind but the mrs. won't have it), is it safe to run the new pex in a similar manner to the old copper; that is, under the joists & main floor insulation, and just wrap them in additional insulation? It's about a 50' run. I know I won't get it as good as the original factory did. Should there be heat tape on that too? I can't see any other way of running the pipes myself, short of drilling holes through every joist and re-insulating almost the whole floor. All suggestions welcome on this one.
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Greg S
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:13 am
Location: Kingston Ontario Canada

Is there no furnace heating run down the length of the home. There should be a register in the master bath in which case there is a way to run the pex the length of the home beside the furnace run.
If not then you are left drilling and running above the belly or insulating the skirting and making sure the furnace doesn't fail you in the dead of winter. A heated home with insulated skirting should maintain the temperature above freezing in the crawl space.
An individual must enforce his own meaning in life and rise above the perceived conformity of the masses. (Anton LaVey)
bobfather99
Posts: 195
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:09 am
Location: Indiana

Had the exact problem on a mobile I worked on awhile back, only the pipes were hacked together PB. What we did was slit a straight line in the belly, pulled out the old wet insulation, and ran the pex right next to the old stuff. We just left the old stuff there rather than wrestling it out. It was an easy run right next to the ductwork. Ran the pex to all the fixtures, cutting out the old plumbing where it was in the way. We re-insulated after letting everything dry out for a few days, and taped up the access cut in the belly material on the way out. Two years later, the plumbing is working just fine, no leaks. In your case, Id pull out the copper and scrap it, make some $$$..... :)
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hhb
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:14 pm

Guess I should have mentioned, there is no furnace or duct work, it has electric baseboards (and a wood stove). The skirting that was on it before we moved it was straight vinyl, no insulation. Pretty crappy, too. From what we know, the home was in that location since 2000, there were no shut off valves for the ensuite bathroom, so presumably the old set up worked previously... or at least didn't split the pipes wide open. That said, they had a jet pump and pressure tank under the home, inside a styrofoam box with a light bulb, which is about the silliest setup I've ever seen, so who knows.
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Greg
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Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:01 pm
Location: Weedsport, NY

You just have to love the modifications that some people make without thinking. At the factory the water lines are run through the belly near the heat ducts to keep them warm. Take away the heat ducts, take away the heat.

Since you are kind'a stuck with the heating situation you have there are a few things that I have seen done. You may be able run the lines inside, I have seen lines run the length of the home in along the wall in a wooden box to hide them. This would keep them warm during cold but you may have problems at doorways.

You could re run them under the home but you will need to find a way to keep them warm. You could go with insulated skirting and add a small heater under the home. I personally do not like the idea of an unattended heater UNDER the home, but with enough insulation you may be able to use ground heat or even add a duct and push heat from the home under the home.

I am sure others will have more ideas for you.

Greg
"If I can't fix it, I can screw it up so bad no one else can either."
hhb
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:14 pm

Thanks Greg. Actually, I think it came from the factory this way. It looks like a factory job, and I'm the first to put a knife to the under belly except for one or two holes. That's why I'm thinking, doing the same thing might work again... but not sure. I'll tell you one thing, I'm putting shut off valves on it this time, there were none except the main.

I've been thinking of how I might possibly run the pipes inside, but this mini is the definition of "open concept", wouldn't be an easy thing to achieve.

I'll take some pictures when I get back to it, but I'm wondering if some heat tape along the pipes might be good insurance, darn stuff is expensive though. Might be cheaper to put a return line of pex on the hot water pipe and a pump tied to a freeze thermostat (like poor man's in-floor heating), inside the insulation but still below the floor joists.
hhb
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:14 pm

Just wanted to add a quick note. I have replaced all the copper in the MH with pex at this point, with the exception of the run to the master ensuite. HOWEVER, I learned the hard way that cheaper pex crimping tools DO NOT pay off. I bought this piece of crap that you're supposed to be able to use 10" locking pliers with, almost every crimp leaked. Broke down and bought the $100 crimper, no problems.

I also learned that if your arms aren't sore after crimping pex, you're probably not doing it right and will have leaks.

Why, oh why, do they even sell crap that just plain does not work? So cheapskate suckers like me can get their money stolen, I suppose. I also bought a new bathtub faucet set, on sale, what a piece of crap. There is a tiny rubber spring seat that wasn't set right, so I couldn't turn the water off. Taking it apart as suggested in the instructions, I of course lost the little rubber thing out the back of the tub wall, down the hole in the floor from the tub trap and out on the ground somewhere. If the darn thing had worked properly from the start I'd be done by now.

Sorry, rant over, moral of story, you really get what you pay for.
dedou
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:25 am
Location: Central Vermont

Hi hhb,
Just wanted to second the thought of running your pipes up inside your place and covering them with openable homemade "baseboard". We plan on doing this after we
get through our current fiasco caused by our old toilet leaking quietly for a year (or more),so I can relate to the soggy pink insulation, yep! That copper your currently have might help pay for your improvements.
Like Greg said, if you have well insulated skirting (or install it, not hard to do and outlined very well in Mark's book), you could possibly get by with running the new piping in the same place as the old. We can't afford to replace our plumbing AND flooring all at the same time, so since ours is "ok" for now, I'm installing sistered 2x4's to the bottom of our (lengthwise) joists, pressure-fitting the pink foamboard XPS up to just below our pipes, then we are going to screw in half inch or less plywood to the actual joists to help keep things warmer for our plumbing. Then when we can get the PEX, we're going to unscrew the plywood, pull out the xps, cut out the plumbing and replace with more insulation, then glue and screw back the plywood and - done!
So, you have lots of options. One good thing about mobile homes is that nothing is "regular", so if you use your head and think things through you can make it way better than it was in the first place.
Devon
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hhb
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:14 pm

Thanks. I'm re-thinking a similar plan, may be able to sneak across the underneath of the kitchen floor along a joist, the right angle across the inside of that wall which leads to the bathroom, piping on the inside. Going to have a hard look at it tomorrow.

I've also just discovered that you can't skip any 25 year old valves or spigots. Thought I could get away with the original laundry taps, just splice into them with pex... Nope. They leak too. They really put a 25 year lifespan on this stuff and mean it.
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JD
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It would be best to replace the line up to the valve connection anyways, so all is good. I usually just end my PEx with a 1/2" threaded m/f connection and add a std washing machine valve. They do make PEx valves just for washing machines, but I have noticed most suppliers are removing them from their catalogs. Don't know what's up with that, so it makes me a little leary of them. The link below takes you to Pex Supply and the washing machine valves with the oulet box. Where I have had trouble with these and other valves is the lock nut does not seem strong enough to hold the valve in place while turning it on and off. No big. You just hold the washing machine hose while turning the valve, but it seems like you shouldn't have to do that. The box & valves below cost like $21. They also have the PEx box with valves and hammer arrestors for $42

PEx Washing Machine Outlet Box w/ Valves
http://www.pexsupply.com/HydroPEX-HWB05 ... er-HWB0500

I buy all but urgently needed PEx supplies from this company. Very cheap buying in bulk. Good company to do business with and they seem to have EVERYTHING PEx. They even have a PEx Ice Maker valve, 1/4" oulet. This allows you to use the braided ice maker supply line with the rubber compression fitting, virtually eliminating the leaks we get with copper line and ferrels.
☯JD♫
Today is PERFECT!

All information and advice given is for entertainment and informational purposes only. The person doing the work is solely responsible to insure that their work complies with their local building code and OSHA safety regulations.
hhb
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:14 pm

Thanks JD, good prices there for sure. Unfortunately I usually need plumbing supplies "that day"., but if I get into a situation where I can actually plan ahead, I'll give them a try for sure.

I ended up just cutting off the copper pipe and soldering in new boiler valves, which are $5 each at the store. The copper pipe already had a pex transition from a couple of days ago, so that's close enough for me.
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