Oh cr*p, toilet problems!

Repair help for the do-it-yourselfer.
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dedou
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:25 am
Location: Central Vermont

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Hi folks,
I finally got the photos sized to an acceptable size, and wanted to show you our toilet.
We've been smelling a strong ammonia smell, and from what I read on here, our seal is gone underneath. I took off some of the skirting yesterday, and sure enough there's a big wet spot on the cement pad underneath, so I'm looking at new flooring, etc. I read about the Fernco waxless ring, and need to get it locally due to the time constraint, and the fact that it's our only toilet. I've replaced wax rings a couple of times, but never installed one of these. Any other pointers I need to know would be appreciated.
Also, it looks like it's also leaking from the tank - especially on the left side as you face it. I've show it dripping in the closeup photo. I looked inside the tank, and can't see any cracks around the head of the bolt on that side, so am wondering what I need to do here?
So am wondering what I ask for at the hardware store? This is an Eljer, 1.6gal flush, so not terribly old, but not real new either.
It looks like the particle board flooring under the toilet may have been replaced before the place was sold to us, as the bathroom floor was discovered to be rotten by the home
inspector we used. But I have to replace it now, and could've used Mark's special e-book on toilet floor replacement, but it's unavailable right now. I do have his book, which is more generalized. So tips here would be great as well. I did read old posts, and one of the site admins. (JD?) had a great post where he had diagrams showing someone how to put in the plywood around the sewer pipe, but I didn't understand his nailing diagrams.
So, I need to: 1) fix the leaky tank, then find out how to attach one of those mixing valves that keep it from condensing, as it was doing that as well all summer (was swapping out old towels, but this would be so much nicer to have)
2) Install a Fernco waxless ring, after figuring out which size I need (do I measure the diameter of the sewer pipe?)
3) and tear out and replace the floor in this area, probably reinforcing it as well,
as we have those lovely (not!) lengthwise joists

And all of this happened after first our fridge died on 4pm on a Sunday afternoon during an 88F. day, and after I had to replace part of our outside stairs due to rot. We still haven't gotten our place leveled, which I was asking about last time I posted because these other things ate up all our money and time. These places keep you hopping, but we figure once we've got it done and done right, it will be good for a long time!
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Devon
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Greg
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I have a few thoughts on your post. I personally would not worry about any mixing valve, stop and think about it.
The condensation was most likely a SYMPTOM of a problem (leaky toilet) I think once the leak is stopped you will not have the COLD water flowing non stop causing the condensation.
I have never used a waxless ring, I have never had a problem with wax rings. Again it it a symptom or a problem. If the floor is bad that will allow the toilet to shift and eventually leak at the wax ring.
You will need to add a few cross joists to support the ends of the repaired section. Use PLYWOOD or at the very least OSB. NEVER use particle board.

Greg
"If I can't fix it, I can screw it up so bad no one else can either."
dedou
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:25 am
Location: Central Vermont

Thanks Greg! I'm not sure with the way the toilet doesn't move at all about the ring, though. It feels pretty sturdy on the floor, but that water is all around the bottom, and fanned out quite a bit (tried to show in first photo, but didn't come out well).Guess I'll find out when we empty it and lift it up. The seat of this model sits 19.5 inches above the floor, so I would think it would rock?
I am thinking since our bathroom is small, I might try that Advantec I read about so much in the builders magazines. It's a type of plywood that can stand some water/weather and not start delaminating. I plan on putting some extra 2'4's out from the wall next to and behind the toilet, and as you look at the photo, the wall to the right of the toilet is where the shower/tub plumbing runs up. The 2x4's would be in case not enough sticks out from under the wall to nail to. (Are screws better attaching things horizontally for shear strength?)
Anyway, I also intend to beef up the floor by doubling up the boxes formed by the joists and cross pieces, and that should help a lot.
Devon
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Steve S.
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dedou wrote: The 2x4's would be in case not enough sticks out from under the wall to nail to. (Are screws better attaching things horizontally for shear strength?)
Anyway, I also intend to beef up the floor by doubling up the boxes formed by the joists and cross pieces, and that should help a lot.
Actually I believe nails have better shear strength than screws, at least that's what I learned when installing joist hangers for my deck. Extra box framing between the joists can never hurt...I beefed up quite a few of mine when I tore out my bathroom floor several years ago. Not only did I have particle board subflooring but also carpeting in the bathroom! Who designs these things :?
-Steve
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From your pictures i would say it definitely leaked at the area between the tank and the bowl. They should just about touch. When you put the tank on the bowl push down on the tank as far as you can and just snug the nuts on the bolts to make it tight. If it does not go down any farther the rubber gasket might not be on right. The gasket has an indentation in it that matches the large nut on the bottom of the tank.

As for the wax ring. I would stay away from the wax less one and just use a wax ring with the plastic funnel attached in it. They work fine as long as you toilet mounts to the floor OK.

As for the floor Advantec works fine. Just try to cut the old floor out where it is sound and try to cut on the middle of the joist and that way you have something to nail or screw the new floor down to. I would also re-enforce the joist by sistering a 2x4 on the side of the joist to give a better nailer. If you do put in some joist hangers make sure to use joist hanger nails. They are made for shear strength and work way better then screws.

Ron
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Greg
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I prefer screws if for no other reason when you install them they usually don't do damage to the surrounding areas like pounding a nail can plus you don't need room to swing a hammer.

Greg
"If I can't fix it, I can screw it up so bad no one else can either."
dedou
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:25 am
Location: Central Vermont

Great tips, thank you. Steve you are right. I should have remembered that from just putting on a set of stairs, where I had read to use nails for shear strength and did just that. I used the screws for attaching the reinforcing angles I used, but they were made especially for shear strength by Simpson (their strong-tie screws). Got myself mixed up there, for a minute, not a new occurance. Luckily, no carpeting in the bathroom, nor will there ever be, sheesh. Our floors are dampish enough underneath, and now the spiders are coming in… But, that's another story for another day.

Greg, are screws ok to use for sistering the joists? I hope so, because I was thinking back to when we installed the raised, insulated floor in the little laundry area, and I wanted those pieces of wood not to move.ever.again.darnit., so I had 3" screws and I went to town! Then while I was researching how to build stairs, I read about the nails and got nervous about my laundry area :(

And Ron, I was wondering about that black thing between the toilet top and tank. The two toilets I helped someone put new wax seals on last year didn't have gaskets, as they must have been one-piece types. Are the gasket replacements brand-specific, or can I
use a generic one, do you know? I will make sure to note where that indentation is on the gasket! And I don't believe I've seen one with a plastic funnel attached to it. What's that do?
Thanks for all the help.
Devon
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HouseMedic
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Greg wrote:I prefer screws if for no other reason when you install them they usually don't do damage to the surrounding areas like pounding a nail can plus you don't need room to swing a hammer.

Greg
Greg, If you are talking about screws to put down the Advantec that is the way to go but if it is for the joist hangers that would not pass code here in Delaware. Joist hangers must use the nails recommended for them. Screws do not have much of a "shear" strength. Screws have a better "holding" power then nails.

Ron
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Devon, Sorry we must have been typing at the same time.
You can get a replacement rubber seal for the tank. They are mostly universal and should fit. They are about three inches wide by about an inch thick.

Also the plastic funnel that I was talking about is in the wax seal. It helps control the aim of the water flow going down the pipe.

Ron
Last edited by HouseMedic on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
HouseMedic
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By the way. 3" screws would work great to sister the joist together. If you are worrying about squeaks then you could also put some construction adhesive between the two boards.

Ron
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Greg
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Ron, Since we are not talking about replacing or adding joists screws should be fine, the structural integrity should not be compromised. I agree that the use of straps is the way to go when joists are added or replaced. The other thought (and we have all seen it) Are manufactured homes really 100% up to code?

Greg
"If I can't fix it, I can screw it up so bad no one else can either."
dedou
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:25 am
Location: Central Vermont

Are joist hangers the same thing as the straps mentioned?
I've seen joist hangers that look like U's, with wings on the sides.

Thanks for the reminder about the construction adhesive - I had seen that in Mark's book, but had spaced putting it on my supply list.

This place was built in 1988, and is one of the more "budget" brands, I guess.
Maybe it was built to code, but the question is: which one? :lol:
Devon
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Greg
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The hangers are the U shaped metal straps.

Greg
"If I can't fix it, I can screw it up so bad no one else can either."
1987Commodore
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:53 pm
Location: Steuben County, NY

The leak from the tank is probably due to a deteriorated seal on the attaching bolt(s). Repair kits are available at home centers and WallyWorld.
If your bolts are as rusted as mine were, you may have to cut them off. Get brass replacements.
ponch37300
Posts: 622
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:12 pm
Location: wisconsin

I went through this a few years ago.

First if it's in the budget I would consider a new toilet. They aren't to expensive and you have to buy a repair kit anyway. If a new toilet isn't an option then a rebuild kit would replace all the guts and seals in your toilet. They make a few different ones like this http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R ... reId=10051.

Shut the water off. Unhook the toilet. Use some old towels to get all the water out of the toilet so you don't make a mess removing the toilet. Take the tank off the base and take it outside. Unbolt the base and take it outside also. Now the fun begins! You are going to need to cut all the bad floor out. You can add blocking were needed in order to support the new patch. I also place a 2x4 flat perpendicular to the joists halfway under the old floor and screw through the old floor and into the 2x4. This will leave a lip for the new patch to sit on. You can use screws for this, yes nails have a better shear rating but in this case you are just transfering a small load to your main joists. Also if you use construction adhesive like you mentioned then that will help with shear. If you are worried screw the board to the joist and then drive a few nails in. Once all your blocking is in then you cut your plywood to size. Now you will need to figure out how you are going to go around you toilet flange. Some will cut the plywood in two pieces so they can go from each side of the flange to get the plywood under the flange. I personally cut the flange out and put a new one in after the flooring is in. This gives a stronger one piece floor and in my opinion is easier. But it does require gluing a new ABS flange in, but then you will have a new flange to bolt your toilet to, a lot of times if you have a water issue the old flange will be garbage anyway. Screw your new plywood patch down and install your flange and screw to new ply. I use wax rings, have always worked for me. I also always replace the supply valve while the toilet is out. Might not need it but my luck has always been fix one thing and then something else goes wrong! So when I do something I do everything because chances are if the toilet is old enough to give you problems the valve is also.

Now you're ready to put the new toilet in. Clean the old poo seal real good. Install new bolts in the flange and set the bottom half of the toilet in place carefully and tighten the bolts down. Then rebuild your top tank with the new parts and seals and set on the bottom half. Tighten down evenly, evenly being the key here. If your toilet has three bolts that hold the tank on tighten each one a little at a time until its tight. Then hook up a new hose from the supply valve to the tank. I always sit on the toilet and shake a little, then re tighten the flange bolts.

Don't worry about the mixing valve, I have never used one and never seen a toilet sweat enough to damage a floor. Plus that would involve running a new hot water line to the toilet to mix.

Also what ever flooring you are going to use should really go under the toilet. So either do the flooring before the toilet or when you do the flooring you will need to take the toilet back out and put the flooring down and set the toilet in a new wax ring.

I think that's it but probably forget a few things.
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