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WildIrish
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I'm concerned about some electrical work I had done, because the guy connected some of the regular, thinner household wire to our MH's thicker wiring, to replace some light switches. He says it's safe, but I'm not so sure. Also, our bathrooms don't have GFCI outlets (which we want to have installed), yet I'm worried if they are installed this same way, with the thinner wire.

Am I worrying for nothing? Are there light switches and outlets specially made for MH's, that an electrician could get? And how are we supposed to have any light fixtures replaced--can regular ones be used with the thicker MH wiring?

Or do I need to get another electrician?

Any help is appreciated, because I'm pretty worried...and I do live in redneck country, where people don't seem to care much about the quality of their work.... :?
Last edited by WildIrish on Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Greg
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Since the work was done by an electrician I would think the work is safe since HE would be held responsible for damages. I found this chart of acceptable wire size/loads It is for both 120v household & 12v automotive.

Greg


This chart is a simple "max capacity" chart for a short wire run. Increase the wire size for long runs - for example the wires running to the back of a vehicle to power the taillights may need to be one size larger to account for the length.

Gauge 110V 12V
22 5A 5A
20 7.5A 8A
18 10A 10A
16 13A 20A
14 17A 40A
12 23A 60A
10 33A 100A
8 46A 150A
6 60A ??A
4 80A ??A
2 100A ??A
1 125A ??A
0 150A ??A
Chart Notes

This 110V column in this chart was provided by one of my readers and according to him it is based on the data in The Howard W. Sams Engineering Staff fifth edition 1983 for stranded copper wire when used in a conduit or bundle. (Open air ratings would be higher, solid copper wire ratings might be slightly lower.) This data seems in line with commonly accepted usage for 120/220V home electrical wiring.
"If I can't fix it, I can screw it up so bad no one else can either."
cmanningjr
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:58 am

When you say thicker wire, is it aluminum or copper? Why do you ask? In Older Mobile Homes and Houses that were wired in aluminum you have to upsize the wire for the ampacity. 12 gauge aluminum (thicker) is rated for 15 amps, where 14 gauge copper (thinner) is rated for 15 amps.

Now, 15 amp circuits are for your GENERAL USE lighting and recepticles.

It's leagal AND Code Compliant as long as the wire is rated for branch circuit overcurrent protection device. (Breaker or Fuse) Which do you have??

NOW, we get into the question of WHY DID HE ADD WIRE? Too short to make the connections?
Did he use a divice/switch that was only rated for copper wire only? (Labeled CU ONLY) (CU/AL means you can use copper or aluminum wiring) AND if he did connect copper to aluminum did he use a wirenut that was approved or listed for the application? (There are some with nolox in them for this application) You will hear that you NEVER tie copper to aluminum. I don't, BUT there are methods that are code compliant that will allow you to do this.

As for your switches, light fixtures and such, there are no difference in them unless you have the kind that are made into the cover plate. (I hate those)

ALWAYS use a qualified licensed electrician when it comes to the safety of your home and family!

Hope this helps.

BTW, I am a licensed electrician with the State of Alabama.

Moderators feel free to delete this if is don't fall within the guidelines of the rules.
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JD
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I think this is an excellent post. The alum wire info is great as this is a problem for many MH owners. We also recommend qualified licensed contractors.

If you do have aluminum wiring and your electrician is adding new circuits to your existing service, you might ask him if anything should be done about the aluminum wire. JMO
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All information and advice given is for entertainment and informational purposes only. The person doing the work is solely responsible to insure that their work complies with their local building code and OSHA safety regulations.
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Greg
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Irish, If I remember correctly from you other posts you have a newer home. Aluminum wire was used in the 70's & early 80's so that part may not be a factor.

Greg
"If I can't fix it, I can screw it up so bad no one else can either."
cmanningjr
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If it's a newer home with copper wiring, I would ask what gauge it is or ask another qualified person to look at it. Maybe ask another electrician for a quote on the GFCI's and have them look at the switches while he's there..Most will give free estimates and recommendations.

I don't guess you snapped pictures of it?
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WildIrish
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I'll try to address both of you in one post, rather than double-posting....

Greg, thanks for the chart. I'm not sure if you meant that you consider a 1970's/80's MH to be "newer"--ours was built in 1975.

I have to confess, I worry about the electrician's work, because at one point, he didn't even bother shutting off the power. Even I do that, when taking off a faceplate to replace it! When I asked him about this, he just said, "Oh, yeah, I've been buzzed a few times." Then, when he replaced our kitchen switch, he found a wire he thought had no use, so he cut it off. After he left, we discovered it was somehow connected between that switch and the light switch in our pantry, so our pantry had no light until he came back and repaired the problem.

The real red flag for me was when he wasn't concerned that our bathrooms don't have GFCI outlets. Even I know better than that! And I've lived in other homes built in the 1970's, all of which had these in the bathrooms. So why isn't that the case in this MH?
cmanningjr wrote:When you say thicker wire, is it aluminum or copper? Why do you ask? In Older Mobile Homes and Houses that were wired in aluminum you have to upsize the wire for the ampacity. 12 gauge aluminum (thicker) is rated for 15 amps, where 14 gauge copper (thinner) is rated for 15 amps.
Our MH was built in 1975. I unscrewed the faceplate, and the grounding wire looks like copper (at least, in color), but I can't see what the other wires are--and don't worry, I won't pull the wires out to look at them. :)
cmanningjr wrote:It's leagal AND Code Compliant as long as the wire is rated for branch circuit overcurrent protection device. (Breaker or Fuse) Which do you have??
We have a breaker box.
cmanningjr wrote:NOW, we get into the question of WHY DID HE ADD WIRE? Too short to make the connections?
Because the light switches were shot, and the wire holes in the new ones were too small for the thicker gauge wire in our house. So he pigtailed (I think that's the term?) a short piece of thinner wire to the thicker wire, then connected the thin wire to the light switches.

IMHO, the existing wires were pretty short, and the electrical boxes looked awfully small to me. Yes, I was looking over his shoulder, because I was worried. :)
cmanningjr wrote:Did he use a divice/switch that was only rated for copper wire only? (Labeled CU ONLY) (CU/AL means you can use copper or aluminum wiring) AND if he did connect copper to aluminum did he use a wirenut that was approved or listed for the application? (There are some with nolox in them for this application) You will hear that you NEVER tie copper to aluminum. I don't, BUT there are methods that are code compliant that will allow you to do this.
I'm sorry, I have no idea what kind of wirenuts or switches he used.
cmanningjr wrote:As for your switches, light fixtures and such, there are no difference in them unless you have the kind that are made into the cover plate. (I hate those)
No, the faceplate is removeable. My one annoyance with the faceplates all over this MH is that they're not flush with the wall. The electrical boxes aren't set into the wall deeply enough. When I put insulating foam outlet/switch pads on them, it's even worse--but at least it keeps out the draft.
cmanningjr wrote:Maybe ask another electrician for a quote on the GFCI's and have them look at the switches while he's there..Most will give free estimates and recommendations.
I plan to do that, but I don't think they'll give us free estimates, since it's an hour's drive, round trip, from here to the city. Plus, I wanted to ask here first, so the second electrician doesn't think he can take advantage of an uninformed person, when I ask him questions. ;)
cmanningjr wrote:I don't guess you snapped pictures of it?
I often take pictures when I'm doing my own work, but I had no way of doing so when the electrician was between me and the switch he was working on, unfortunately.

If you guys can help with these other questions, I hope it will help me find an electrician whom I trust more than this first guy. Thanks in advance!
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bobfather99
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Location: Indiana

My Dad is a retired electronics engineer/electrician with over 40 years experience. Since I was young he has told me that ANYONE who doesnt kill power to the circuit where he/she is working is ASKING for trouble!!! Id steer clear of this guy!!! His work can cause a fire, or worse, injure or kill someone.
Tip your bartender.....
cmanningjr
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:58 am

Ok, First off and the MOST important thing is- YOU are not comfortable with the "Electricians" work.

Now let's get you in a better position for the next one that will make you feel warm and fuzzy inside. :)

1. GFCI Receptices wasn't required in bathrooms till 1975 NEC. (It takes a while for places to adopt new codes especally MH plants) So your home NOT having them is not a horrible thing as long as you are aware that you need them. :D

2. When the NEW/Different Electrician comes. ASK Questions. IE, What size wire are you adding? Why? Are the devices (switches/plugs) approved for the wiring that I have? If so, SHOW ME. (it's a fair question if YOU are paying for them)

3. If ANY ELECTRICIAN starts cutting wires you "don't need" ask them to leave NOW.

4. The cover plates you have that stick off the wall can be replaced with better quality ones that are deeper and will fit flush with the recepticle when you have the insulator installed. (I can't stand that either) They MAY also fix your box sticking out of the wall too far problem. Depending on what type of boxes you have, they can be adjusted to fit better.

5. The wire not fitting in the holes on the back of the switch does not constitute adding more wire. You can and should (in my opinion) use the screws on the side of the devices instead of adding another (lets call it a splice) . Less splices the better.

AND, the switches/plugs HAVE to be rated for the ampacity of the branch circuit that's feeding them. (What does this mean?) Let's say, you have 12 gauge wire feeding your switches.(it's possible, I haven't seen your home) that would mean the wire is rated for 20 amps AND the devices on the circuit SHALL be equal. A switch rated for a 20 amp circuit would have LARGER holes in the back to accept the larger wire. SO, it would throw up a red flag to me that the devices he used ARE not rated for the same ampacity as the ones that he removed.

ALWAYS ask for your old parts, compare them to the new ones that are being installed. EVERY device will tell what it is rated for.

6. A LOT of Electricians will work stuff hot. Is it right? Not really. If you don't feel good about someone working on your property. Ask them to stop, tell them you have a NO LIVE WORK policy.



Hope this helps,

Remember, YOU need to be happy with the work. NO matter what anyone tells you. Don't be afraid to ask questions. It's your home and your money.


Again I would like to say to the MODs. If I overstepped ANY boundries please edit or delete the post. No how-to's were given or intended. Everyone should hire a Qualified Licensed Electrician for this work.
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Greg
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Carl, Great post, overstepping that I can see.

Irish, The easiest way to find out for sure if you have Aluminum wiring or not, (1975 could be either) since you have a breaker box simply remove the 4 screws holding the outside cove on and remove the cover. you will be able to see the wires to the breakers and see if they are copper or aluminum. If you are uncomfortable doing this have the Electrician do for you.

Greg
"If I can't fix it, I can screw it up so bad no one else can either."
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WildIrish
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Greg, I'll definitely have the electrician do that for me. Thanks for your help, guys!
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canman47
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Interesting thread. I was wondering about the copper/ aluminum wire issue. Looking at my breaker box I see that both have been used. It looks like a professional wiring job so probably original. Can breakers accept either type of wire? All the breakers look to be the same type.
cmanningjr
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99% are used for both. They will say CU/AL if thet will take either
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flcruising
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Just to add my $.02

You can add GFCI to your bathroom (and kitchen) circuit(s) without touching the outlets, simply by installing GFCI breakers. Breakers, of course, are more expensive than outlets, but this is a very straightforward retro.

Also, I personally wouldn't be troubled to see an electrician 'pigtail' a switch with a smaller gauge wire because the switch doesn't carry the full current of the whole circuit, only the fixture it controls. But again, that's just me.
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