1997 multiple water line leaks

[redneeckgirl]

My home is a 1997 80' X 16' with 1/2" PEX tubing end to end. Today a crew came over ready to fix a few spots of my underbelly. Sadly I learned that I have leaks from one end of the house to the other.
They left saying they can't help me until the water leaks are fixed (understandbly). The entire underbelly and insulation is going to have to be removed and replaced.

Now that the ground has been laid, my questions:

One.. Since it appears I have multiple leaks from not so sure locations, and the whole underbelly will be gone, I'm thinking that I'll just replace all the waterlines in the house. I figure I need 160' plus just for the main lines (hot and cold), so I might as well buy the 500' roll of PEX and do it all right?

Two.. I have the 18" insulation, and when the crew comes back in spring they'll be using the same sooo.... with that much protection against the cold would using shark bite fittings for the whole job be sensible? I love the ease of them, even though they cost a little more. My only worry was that I've heard rumored they don't perform well in cold, but since I plan to use Frost King foam pipe insulators combined with the 18" of underbelly insulation, do you think the sharks would avoid freeze issues? (I live in northern Indiana, we sometimes have below zero in winter but not too frequent)

Now assuming the answer to the first question is "do the whole job while you have the chance"..... I then would think that my best method of attack would be as follows (Please correct me if I'm wrong).
After underbelly has been removed, start from one end of the house, unscrew all waterlines from their faucet inside the home after labeling them, repeat until all waterlines have been unhooked. Pull the whole mess (gently) to the side lawn and use the old lines as a 'diagram' to purchase, measure and assemble the new lines.

p.s. in this situation would I find any benefit to using a specific color of pex? It seems the red blue and white all seem to be in the same price range, so I guess using red and blue are just there for ease of not having to remember which was the hot line? Any recomendations on the colors? I currently have the clear lines.


Whew... I really rambled on that one sorry folks....

[Brenda (OH)]

I was working with a quality contractor, and he accidently hooked a toilet up to hot water, and had to come back to change it to cold water.... he now used red pex for hot water lines...lol

have you priced 100 ft pex rolls? 200 to 300 feet might be less cost than 500 feet.

Brenda (OH)

[redneeckgirl]

Since you mention it, I re-checked the pricing... it is actually $10 cheaper to buy 5- 100' rolls than to buy one 500' roll... I don't know if it's typical but I have my main hot and cold run straight down the center with connections branching off that main line where appropriate so I'm rough guessing 360' for the job based on these connections, keeping in mind the new line will run from the main line to the faucet... I'm also planning extra footage for messed up cuts and for jobs the neighbors will most likely as me to donate to (again lol)

hot/cold connections being:
tub/shower
4 sinks
washer
dishwasher
garden tub
shower

cold connection only being:
2 toilets
auto-ice-maker in fridge
... with all that I'll probably find a partrige in a pear tree while I'm down there lol.....

If it's helpful I can post a diagram I've made of the house pluming layout..

[Greg]

I don't want to confuse the issue (And you) any more but as long as you are going to be doing a total re plumb I would use the 2 color system plus I think I would go with a 3/4" main lines down the length of the home, This will increase the flow and not increase the costs all that much. You may also want to think about using a manifold system. With that system you simply plug your lines into the manifold closest to the faucet, much like an electrical outlet. You can google working with PEX if you need more information on the manifold type system.

One other thing to remember. SHUT OFF VALVES!!! you can never have too many. Greg

[ponch37300]

I agree with Greg about the 3/4" main lines and shut off valves. If this was me I would run the 3/4" mains and then cut where needed and use 3/4"x1/2"x3/4" "tees" and use 1/2" branch lines to your shut of valves and then braided steel supply lines to the fixtures.

[JD]

With multiple leaks in PEx, I would find out exactly what failed. Just guessing, I would think that it is a problem with the fittings and not the PEx line. It could be installer error. The year 1997 makes me wonder if the fittings were the Zurn-Qest fittings that are involved in the class action suit. http://www.zurnclassaction.com/ The problem with those fittings were at the manufacturing level. There was nothing wrong with the design or orignal specs. It was the Chinese manufacturers using low quality alloy and quality control. Anyways, these Qest fittings created the law suit because of mass failures. Interesting, huh? Qest is the famous polybutylene pipe people, and Chinese manufacturers making inferior metal products. Who wouda thunk it?

There have also been reports of dissimilar metal problems when using PEx-AL-PEx (pex with an aluminum interior pipe) and non-oxygen barrier metal fittings. This is unlikely as the more expensive pex-al would not be needed for your plumbing needs.

All in all, there have not been widespread reports that PEx pipe have had problems. So if it were me, I would consider just changing the fittings and leaving the existing pipe in place. If you find a connection where there is not enough slack to install new fittings and still leave the required amount of slack, you can add pipe as needed. If you need a couple of inches, I would cut off 24" and put back 26" to 28". Point being, I would not add a little 2" stub.

A thorough inspection would determine what the actual problem was. If it was not the pipe, I would not be afraid to use the existing pipe.

JMO
JD

[redneeckgirl]

I think I'm gonna follow Greg on this one, using the red and blue for new lines, I'll probably kick myself somewhere in the future if I don't. With the large section (10' x 16') of underbelly I have missing I'm sure it's not impossible I've suffered small cracks in my lines due to all the direct cold exposure they're seeing. New PEX line will only run me around $125 and as I always see on these boards, $125 is not a lot of money for a lot of insurance.

I'm assuming then that the demo/install method I'm thinking from first post is the right course of action since I didn't see any corrective method. I'll go ahead with planning phase and when the temps improve a bit I'll get started!
I'll take some pics if y'all like of the project, I know some of the others like using them as reference to their own jobs.

***edit*** Just checked out the manifold... got some thinkin to do, alot of pros n cons to weigh still goin with a total re plumb just now how to approach hmmmm..... Mabye I'll start with diagraming both methods and making a price list for each?

[redneeckgirl]

Am I missing anything for a manifold setup based on this drawing?

sorry bout the crudeness of the draw, I did it at 3 in the morning lol...

[Greg]

Perhaps I am under the wrong impression, I was thinking the manifold could be mounted anywhere. My thought was to mount it to a floor joist and make your tie ins there. I would recommend a little more research and make sure that there would be no problems doing this. Greg

[ponch37300]

Personally I would put a shut off valve where the pex goes to your supply line. The adapter you are planning on using is probably around 2 dollars and a shut off valve that has a pex fitting on one side and male threads on the other is around 4 bucks. So for around 2 bucks I would put a shut off at each location.

Also I wouldn't go with a manafold setup in a mobile home. It's going to cost more for the manifold and the extra pex since each run is from the manifold. In my opinion your money would be better spent running a 3/4" main line and then "tee" off of the main to 1/2" pex to get above the floor and then a pex to male thread shut off valve and then a braided supply line to the fixture.

[Greg]

I gust did some quick checking, There are types of manifolds one with valves incorporated and one style without. I would use one without valves as a junction and install a shutoff as close as possible to the fixture. Greg

[Steve S.]

With multiple leaks in PEx, I would find out exactly what failed. Just guessing, I would think that it is a problem with the fittings and not the PEx line. It could be installer error. The year 1997 makes me wonder if the fittings were the Zurn-Qest fittings that are involved in the class action suit. http://www.zurnclassaction.com/ The problem with those fittings were at the manufacturing level. There was nothing wrong with the design or orignal specs. It was the Chinese manufacturers using low quality alloy and quality control. Anyways, these Qest fittings created the law suit because of mass failures. Interesting, huh? Qest is the famous polybutylene pipe people, and Chinese manufacturers making inferior metal products. Who wouda thunk it?

JD

JD, I wonder if Zurn has changed or upgraded the manufacture of their brass fittings...as I was just looking at QestPex brass fittings for sale at Home Depot. I also see that Sharkbite sells regular PEx fittings and crimp rings and pipe as well. I guess I'll steer clear of Zurn stuff, but who knows, maybe the class-action lawsuit may be groundless.
-Steve

[JD]

I am sure Zurn stepped up it's quality control due to the law suit. I believe that the claim is that the Chinese manufacturer did not refine it's alloys to acceptable standards when making the brass. Whether the "good stuff" is on the shelves or not, I don't know. I know some of the local pro plumbing only suppliers in my area quit carrying their fittings. I have always used Hydro-Pex fittings and pipe, but that was more luck of the draw than anything else. There is a pro plumbing shop real close to my house. So when I wanted to start using pex, I went there for my first person to person primer on proper installation and type of system to use. This place sells it all, oiteker SS, copper crimp and wirsbro. Anyways, I chose the stainless steel clamps and bought my product from them. They just happened to sell Hydo-Pex. There is no crystal ball to foresee what problems will be discovered down the road, so I have my fingers crossed that Hydro-Pex is and will always be a company with higher standards.

Maybe the lawsuit is groundless, but I am thinking not. Corporations can show higher profits to shareholders by cutting costs, when growth slows down. This type of marketing used to be just for the bottom of the barrel companies. It seems to be becoming the status quo for all major corporations too. Why not? They cannibalize their value through blind short-selling and other illegal or should be illegal stock games. In both instances they are taking good product and turning it into cr@p but continue to sell it for the same price. "Just calm down JD, step away from the keyboard"...

JD

[Steve S.]

I hear ya JD...just don't know who or what to trust nowadays...morality seems to have been lost and forgotten...I guess it's a crapshoot with whatever products are used. PEx still seems to have a far better record than polybutylene (however most of my PB plumbing is still going strong after 25 years of use...go figure). I am just very curious as to why the OP's PEx plumbing failed...could have been bad installation I suppose or maybe the Zurn Chinese fittings...would be nice to know the details of this failure. Thanks as usual for your expertise and advice.
-Steve