Yikes. Freaked. Roof deflection

[nwwoman]

Hi... Snow here has been horrid. Then it turned to rain. Today, the snow is about three inches on rooftop, thankfully, but the bad news is that this morning I noticed a large deflection in the living room ceiling.

Home is an 80x14 single wide, flat (slight dome) roof. It's in excellent shape (or was). Bedroom is on one end. Another bedroom on opposite end. So living room/kitchen is in middle. Deflection is across the 14 foot width of living room -- in middle.

I have had snow removed in past winters but honestly, this winter, I didn't see it become high enough to merit..what with the snowfall and then warming and then snow..and then warming.

Snow is being removed as I speak. It's 43 outside. (Finally) But, dang, now what? So many questions: What's involved in a repair? Worth it? Is it safe to stay here? Did a truss break? Who to call? Mobile home park owner said he's not licensed in state to do repairs (our state requires separate license now) or he would help.

It's about a 2 inch deflection as far as I can figure from the small stick I have. Maybe 3. No water marks. No cracks in the interior ceiling.

I'm freaked so any comfort and counsel sure is welcome.

[shadow745]

Can you post a few pics of what you're seeing? Later!

[Dean3]

Well,if it is a truss that failed somehow,that ain't good! And could indeed be dangerous.

I'm gonna guess it is the cieling panels that loosened from the truss,,,,but,,,that's just a guess.

Has gently pushing up on the panel/s been tried? If it is the 16" wide,pressed-paper, panels that have come loose they will go up/down pretty easilly,with a sagging truss I would expect more resistance,and then,be more worried about the structure. If it happens to be a drywall cieling then You may get some resistance even if it is only that the fasteners(screws/nails)have popped-thru.

I spose,just in case,it would be good to have 2 people there to do the test,one to stand back with phone in hand to dial 911 if the roof caves-in on the tester-guy! I'm kinda 1/2 kidding here cause I don't find that event as "likely". If You were home when and if it dropped due to truss failure I would almost expect it to make some serious noise,maybe enough to wake a person.

In any event,if the panel goes up the 2"-3" You spoke of,,without too much resistance,then stops when it touches the truss,assuming the truss is in the original place,I would look to fixing the fasteners,whatever they be,,,and,,check for signs of leaks.

Dean

[Demolition]

Sometimes when a house is moved or during set up, it will twist. The second cause could be the roof was not designed for Iowa Snow.

The truss is a simple design that a person could build and staple in. I agree that you want all the old snow off the roof and have a friend standing by in a safe zone.

You would need to remove some of the ceiling sheetrock and have all your nice furniture out of the way. It is possible and definetly messy.

I also agree you would want to re-seal the roof. Do this after fixing the trusses.

The last and final option is to build a roof around the trailer. Basically your trailer would be located in a drive in carport. This is kinda pricey and if it aint sturdy could fall on the house

[Greg]

First as you know, get the snow & slush off of the roof to relieve as much weight as possible. then gently push up on the panel. If it pushes easy untill it is about level, then the staples popped.

If you push up and it feels like you are picking up the roof, you might be. Then I would suspect a truss problem. Greg

[nwwoman]

Hi...again...

What a day!

Well, the snow is all off the roof and I was told that despite the snow depth being low from the warming lull we're in, the weight of the snow was very heavy because of the rain that fell and was absorbed.

After removal of the snow, the ceiling in my living room lost the huge amount of sag that was present. It's looking a WHOLE LOT better. Thank goodness!! However, I measured it and there is still a 2 inch swoop in my ceiling. And, it's most of the living room ceiling. Near the walls, the height is correct. But then it swoops down toward the middle of the room, much like a piece of material nailed at each of its corners but allowed to sag toward the middle. Fun. My earlier calculations were wrong. It was worse before the snow was removed.

Given what Greg et.al have written here, I did as instructed. Pushed. I have a lot of area to cover given the width of the swoop. But, so far, every push has resulted in lots of give upward. I have yet to find a spot where when I pushed I can find wood/solid immediately.

My ceiling look is textured, with 14 inch wide panels and a 1 inch wide strip between each panel. The strip is textured too. A friend says that he swears that my ceiling is one solid piece. Don't know, myself. There are no "rivets" or any staples or nails visible in the ceiling.

How far apart do you think the wood beams (? correct word) are..above the ceiling panels. Or is it a flat wood board above the ceiling panel?? I'm trying to figure out how better to "push" to locate a broken board/truss or whatever is there that's wrong.

After the pushing to "diagnose" the problem, if I find that the ceiling panels have separated from whatever is above them, can I -- don't laugh now -- use a heavy duty staple gun (have a friend who is a commercial painter and another who is a tiler..and another who is a home contractor/stick-frame) and staple from inside the home and then seal and paint to cover the staples?

Reason, I'm asking is because right now my painter friend is shaking his head and saying that the entire living roof needs to be removed to fix it properly and that my problem will be trying to find someone to do that work. Plus, he said it's going to be very, very expensive.

Any feedback?

Sigh. Sigh. Sigh.

[Dean3]

This sounds like a much larger area than I had thought.The next time I see the word "deflection" I'm gonna do like shadow745 and ask to see a pic. My bad,as they say.

My place is the same width and has the LR open to the Kit,no big deflections. I have had it for about 6 years and never removed the snow once,the wind seems to do that for Me,maybe the wind and heat loss!

Push up at the 1" wide strip,this strip covers the edges of the 16" wide panels at the joint,each joint/panel runs the length of each truss,the trusses cross the home and are 14'(or a bit more)long.If You are lucky there is enough material on the edges of the panels to re-staple them up,and if luckier yet,no major truss("beam" as You say)problems. The trusses are 16" OC(on center).

Dean

[Dean3]

The 1" wide plastic strips will come out without too much trouble once You get the knack.Just squeeze them starting on an end,very soon You will see they slip out of thin channels built into the panels.When that is done You will see the staples,,,or the broken edges of panels where staples were,,wichever comes 1st. It is a bit suprising the strips haven't begun to pop out of the channels on their own with the amount of sag.

I can all but guarantee You,Your cieling is *not* "one solid sheet" or whatever it was You were told.

Dean

[JD]

I have replaced hundreds of ceiling panels and repaired over a hundred trusses through the years. It is my guess that you have 1x2 ceiling trusses (dome top roof) and they are probably not actually broke. They have had too much weight on them and they have given slack where ever they can. They might just be kind of curved and tweaked.

Your ceiling panels are 48" wide, made of 3 sections that are 16" o.c.. Basically two flat channels in the panel and two half channels, one at each end. When you put two 48" panels together, the two edges make one complete channel.

These panels have been out of production for many years. The plastic splines will be very brittle by now. I really doubt that you can squeeze them enough to get them out without breaking them. Then putting them back in is just as hard. This is easy to do when the plastic is new. Maybe if you are careful enough and take enough time you will be able to reuse them. I really have my doubts though.

Straightening and reinforcing the trusses would require removing the ceiling panels. For a large living room, it would take a couple of experienced guys at least two days to repair. 2 days X 2 men at contractor labor rates could be expensive. Friends getting paid beer or dinner is not so bad. You might add another day though

The stapler to use would be a 1" crown pneumatic (air compressor) stapler. This is a roofing/lathe stapler. The staples need to be 1" long minimum for 1x2 trusses and a little longer for 2x2 or better trusses. The local rental stores in my area rent them for like $20 a day. I like the pneumatic gun because I won't be beating on my 1x2 trusses with a hammer. I have seen screws with washers used with success, but they might tend to split the wood. They would probably be alright for a spot repair, but the air gun is the best way to go. This is especially true when you and you helper are straining to hold the ceiling panel up, trying to get enough fasteners in to relax your arms.

JMO
JD

[nwwoman]

Hi JD, Greg, Dean3, Demolition and Shadow...

I'm writing a quick note this morning to say thank you so very much for the support and counsel. When something like this happens to your "nest," it's frightening and stressful. Ignorance of the structural design and how to solve the problem yourself makes the situation even more frustrating.

It means so much to me -- and I know I must speak for others -- for you folks to take time from your lives to help others. I don't think I have the ability to express how much your words...and knowing that I can turn to this group -- affects my life, providing comfort in the midst of a trying time. You each are not only needed but truly appreciated.

I have to turn my attention this morning to the business of making money -- I have a full-time business and a part-time university job. Later today, I'll return to this ceiling mess. I need to clarify some of the things you have said here to assure I understand. And I'll take some pics, get some measurements.

In the interim, a warm thank you to each of you. (I have marketing/PR skills -- if you need help and I can return the favor, don't hesitate to ask.)

[Dean3]

JD,

I have only fixed a few of these type of cieling panel edges over the years,usually only a few feet of sagging edge,so,I guess I assumed they were 16" wide,with a joint under each plastic strip. I just looked under two strips next to each other and,dangitall,Yer right on the money!

Since I made such a stupid statement as "your panels are 16" wide and 14' long",,maybe,just maybe,I can make up to nwwoman for that grievous(sp?)error with a suggestion/question for You.

If nwwoman's cieling panels really have let loose over such a large area,could a panel lift be used in the middle to lift the 4' wide panels up to the trusses for re-stapling? It would have to be used with care of course to avoid punching the lift through the panels. I ask because She said one of Her friends builds houses,maybe He has a lift wich would/could mean one less person needed,and,no sore shoulders from holding panels up. I didn't suggest it before because I truly thought the panels were narrower! (embarassed)

I have a panel lift and the above would be tried here at My place if I had the same large area to fix. I would just shuffle a bit of furniture and try the lift out in the middle of the rooms.

Dean

[JD]

Hi Dean,

Certainly a panel lift would help hold the panel to the ceiling and would work is you can still get in to the spline area to shoot a staple. I have never used one though. Must be nice. I cut my panels and then a helper and I walk to the spot and lift it straight up in place. I have a step ladder there with the stapler hung on it where I can reach it while holding the panel up. I put in about 4-5 staples in the middle channels, step to the middle of the room, put in a couple more and then relieve my helper at the other end of the panel.

But I don't think her panels are loose from the trusses. I think you hit it on the head before when you said the splines should fall out with that many panels loose. I am thinking with that many loose panels, the weight of all the panels hanging would just bring the panels down. I have seen many homes as nwwoman described where the trusses were broken or tired and swayed.

And that was not such a bad mistake. That is what almost everyone thinks until they are actually taking them down. I have seen 16" wide mobile home ceiling panels before, but they were more of a tongue and groove deal with no plastic splines.

JD

[Dean3]

Hmmmm,I will guess then,that the sag in the ceiling should be mirrored in the roof line,assuming the home is relatvely flat/levelled at floor height,,that is,,(2nd >)unless only the bottom board of the truss could have sagged but the top/crown kept it's shape. Is that 2nd scenario very likely when so many trusses are involved?

It sounds like the home is pretty good other than the long run of open ceiling,I would consider fixing the trusses,or at least,sistering plywood to them as they are,as I've seen many folks here mention.

Maybe even install a wall at the carpet/linoleum line with a small breakfast counter,on top of a "beefy" part of that install a beam of some sort,that runs from Kitchen wall(studs under beam),across the new counter's wall,and finally to the LR wall(studs again),,,basically spanning the problem.If the sagging trusses can be safely pushed up into place then all the better,if not at least there is plenty of support for snow load,or should be if the trusses still have strength. The beam wouldn't give the place a smaller feel but the wall with counter probably would.

The lift really is nice to have,I bought it from a drywaller-type guy a while back,used,for $135,about 1/4 of new price for comparable,just needed oiling,,,,the lift,not Me,lol. I also use My 4' aluminum stepladder in the same way,almost as much a table as a ladder some days.

Well nwwoman,I hope You get it figured out and functional. The folks here really are helpful,,,a bit hard to "nudge" on the procedures sometimes, ,but that might be a good thing!

Dean

[Greg]

The bottom line here is that you need to keep the roof clear of snow, this may have been easily preventable had the snow been removed before it turned into a sponge. Greg

[JD]

I will guess then,that the sag in the ceiling should be mirrored in the roof line,assuming the home is relatvely flat/levelled at floor height,,that is,,(2nd >)unless only the bottom board of the truss could have sagged but the top/crown kept it's shape. Is that 2nd scenario very likely when so many trusses are involved?

Yep. If the trusses are bowed or broken, this will also show on top of the roof. This is a big part of the problem. The more the roof bows, the more it will pond water. The weight of the water makes the trusses bow more.

I have seen trusses just come apart from weight and old age where the web/bracing just come loose from the top or bottom chords. Just bent not broken. I have also seen them just give and bend. All the fasteners are there, just everything is tweaked and a bit loose.

Something I have seen several times that just amazes me is a broken truss with a huge knot in the 1x2 bottom or top chord right at the break. While these are flimsy light-weight trusses, I am sure clear lumber was code for them.

Here in Fresno (the valley anyways), we will not have snow on our roofs. I am sure the snow makes this a much worse problem. When is rains here, a slight bow might not pond water. But when it starts ponding, it continues to get worse. Most sealants will peel or flake when left in standing water for a long time.

JD