Important to make sure your skirting is in good shape

[ponch37300]

This is just a friendly reminder of why it's important your skirting is in good shape and an example of how much of a difference it can make.

We have been having some pretty cold temps lately, lots of negatives and even worse with wind chill. Our kitchen sink pipes have froze up a couple times so far this year. Yesterday I decided it was time to see what was going on since our kitchen pipes have never froze before. Figured something had to be going on.

I went outside and walked over to where the kitchen sink is and noticed one problem right away. The top of the skirting was pushed in and not in it's top track. This past summer I had gone down and releveled again before I started installing new kitchen cabinets. When I did this I had to raise that part a little and I knew the skirting was a little shorter then it should be but still in place. I meant to replace it this fall but ended up not having the time. But had to make the time yesterday in the cold! The cold and freezing moved some things just enough for the top of the skirting to fall out of the top track and made a funnel of sorts for the cold air to be channeled right up under the kitchen sink.

The other problem I noticed was that the water supply lines were resting on the belly material. I guess when I did the new under sink plumbing and had cut the pex lines they dropped down and I never pulled them back up. I pulled them up and zip tied them to the drain for now, seemed like the easiest way to secure them for now.

I had been turning the heat up to 72 at night and the pipes were still freezing. Last night I left the heat at our normal 68 and it was super cold outside and I woke up to no frozen pipes.

Thought I would post this just to show how much of a difference the skirting being in good shape can make. Hopefully everyone's pipes are keeping from freezing and you're having a good holidays!

[Greg]

Ponch, funny that your kitchen sink is acting up too. Since we moved the cold side of our's has frozen once, first time since we bought it in 92. I am planning on going downstairs tomorrow and adding some insulation. I suspect that when I moved the main supply line from there to where it was supposed to be by the water heater I may have left a gap in the insulation.

Greg

[ponch37300]

Greg, maybe your supply lines dropped down to the bottom of the belly material when it was moved? When I redid our cabinets and did the undersink plumbing which includes the hot/cold for sink and an ice maker and also we added a dishwasher I just cut the old pex and added new valves and fittings. I never even thought to pull up the pipes when I was doing it. But when I opened up the skirting I noticed a little bulge right there and felt it and it was the supply lines for the kitchen sink pressing against the belly material and felt like a 90 degree fitting. Maybe when you moved the supply lines dropped down a little and are resting on the belly material?

I'm not sure what was more of a factor, the lines pressing against the belly material or the skirting creating a funnel for the cold air to run right across the lines. But the combo was leaving us without water. I was pretty upset because I had worked hard in the last few years to re insulate where it needed and patch up the belly and the skirting and the last year we didn't have any frozen lines. Except for the water meter blowing out from the heat tape GFCI turning off!

[Greg]

I know the problem area is where main supply line was originally tied in when we were in the park. Since we moved I moved the supply line back to where it was supposed to be. It is 30' closer to my ground connection and a lot less to buy heat tape for!!

I suspect I just don't have enough insulation in that area or possibly like your's the tube is hanging down too low. Since it's the cold side and not the hot I'm leaning towards the hanging down idea.

Greg

[Greg]

Well I just came back "upstairs" this is what I found

IMG_20140101_105848_639.jpg

As I suspected I left a void with no insulation. I'll know by this weekend if the problem is solved. they are talking -10* with wind.

Greg

[ponch37300]

Woke up this morning to all hot water frozen. I'm guessing a pipe by the water heater is frozen, either going into or coming out. We have an interior water heater closet and I have it opened up. I cranked the heat and had left the heat lamp down there from last time so turned that back on. I'll have to get down there tomorrow and see what I can find because Sunday and Monday are going to be crazy cold. Monday is a HIGH of -11. And calling for wind so the low of -16 and throw the windchill on top of that and it's not going to be fun! Here I thought the frozen pipe issues were fixed.

[Greg]

Ponch, You DO know that we are making ourselves look bad (Like I need help). Here we give advise on other people's problems and we are having the same problems!

Greg

[1987Commodore]

It can be a real bear to protect those lines under the water heater. We had an insulated box built around the area where the supply line came in, which was also under the tank. They attached the wooden box to the floor joists, and covered it with foam sheets. There is access provided by unscrewing one side of the box.
My supply line is wrapped with 6" fiberglass, over wrapped with plastic sheeting to stop wind penetration.
Hope this helps.

My son is going to be at Lambeau on Sunday for the game; he'll get to feel the cold first hand!!

[ponch37300]

Ponch, You DO know that we are making ourselves look bad (Like I need help). Here we give advise on other people's problems and we are having the same problems!

Greg

Ya I guess being on this forum doesn't make us immune to the cold! I figured I'd share my problems also so it may help someone else. Wasn't that long ago I found this forum by doing a google search looking for some help.

I had some time this afternoon so I decided to brave the cold and crawl down under and see what was going on. Found the belly material opened up under the water heater and the insulation hanging down a little. I'm not sure if something got in there and tore it open or what. It was patched up from an old repair so may have just opened up. I've had other repairs open back up before so maybe this one did also. Or something got in there, not sure how I didn't see any gaps in the skirting. The top wasn't in the top track on about 6 feet but I wouldn't think that would be enough for something to get in that would tear the belly open. But who knows.

I moved the insulation around to cover the hole and put a heat lamp right under it and we had water in an hour or so. I haven't had that much luck fixing belly material in the winter, even with a heat gun they still seem to be iffy on holding. Thinking I'll just put some more itch in there and wait till spring to repair the belly material.

Commodore, I might have to join your son at Lambeau Sunday if I want to watch the game. Heard tonight they extended our deadline until tomorrow afternoon to sell out or they will black the game out. Kind of hard to believe with a ticket wait list of 105,000 and the last time they didn't sell out a home game was 1983. I was just in Green Bay tonight and it's cold out there! I feel sorry for those 49ers coming from warm California to the Frozen Tundra. They are saying when the sun goes down in the second half it could drop to -15 actual temp and then add the windchill on top of that it could be pretty frosty. Have to drink the beers fast to keep them from freezing!

[calderhill]

Well, it's only gotten down to -11F here in Oneonta, NY. No problems since from the park water connection to the shutoff inside next to the water heater, is only two feet and that has heat tape on it. My water heater is inside the back bedroom closet and of course it is heated so I'm wondering about how some of you are set up. The hot and cold lines then go inside to the bath and then down alongside the heat ducts up to the front kitchen so there's no chance of a freeze problem. As you can see, my skirting is well sealed!

[terrifromohio]

They are saying -40 degrees wind chill here in Ohio next week, I am sure that will involve some frozen pipes here. I am not looking forward to this. There is hea tape under there but not so sure its working as the GFI has probably tripped.
I have no idea where its even at under there. Just praying nothing freezes but at those temps most likely will.

[1987Commodore]

Your GFI is probably an outlet in one of the bathrooms, or by the kitchen sink. There is a possibility that it is a breaker in your panel box, which should be labelled as such.

Calderhill, my supply pipe runs above ground from the park connection about 12 feet to the inlet, under the water heater. Mine used to freeze where it went into the belly, because there was a rats nest of pipes under the tank, too low in the belly. I reworked the connections, then, since the wrap had been opened to fix things, it was too hard to reseal properly. I had an insulated wooden box attached to the floor joists there, so the area was better sealed. Now, with the box, and 6" of fiberglass around the supply line, there have been no further problems.

[ponch37300]

Calderhill, my supply comes out of the ground and runs about 25-30 feet and then up into my underbelly close to my water heater. My water heater is in the kitchen in a cubby in the middle of the trailer. Then the hot and cold run to both ends of the trailer by the heat duct.

As long as everything is in good condition then there shouldn't be any issues with freezing. The supply has to have heat tape and be working. Had a problem last year when the heat tape GFCI had tripped and I didn't know it until the water meter froze and blew out the back cover! I've been trying to come up with a way to monitor the temp of the supply line from the inside and try to get an advance warning if there is a problem since we can't see what is going on down there.

Then your skirting and belly material needs to be intact and sealed up. The skirting keeps most of the wind out but more importantly it keeps out any critters that can tear into your underbelly. The underbelly keeps the cold air from getting up into the floor joists. It also keeps the warm air from your heat ducts from getting out. With a good layer of insulation and belly material you shouldn't have any frozen pipes. From my experience the frozen pipe isn't the problem, it's the result of another problem like belly material open or skirting. Last year we dropped WAY down into the negatives and never had a frozen pipe. This year both frozen pipes were the results of another problem. This last one of no hot water was because the belly material had been opened up at an old repair. Either just failed or something got under there and opened it up. This let cold air to get in and freeze the pipes.

terrifromohio, my GFCI is located by where the water supply goes into the underbelly. It's just an outlet facing down that the heat tape plugs into. You can check there or it may be tied into the bathroom GFCI or outside outlets GFCI. If you can't get to it now to check I would try to in the summer just so you know where it is and how to see if it's working. My heat tape has an orange LED light in the plug so I can just look under there and see the orange light in the dark.

[Greg]

Well it's back to square 1 for me, Kitchen froze again last night. I guess I'm just going to have to do some rerouting. The problem is that when the home was delivered originally in 92 the guy just took a short cut and tied into the closest water line he could find. So I have to remove his handy work and get back to the original plumbing ( I really don't feel like getting wet). I never had problems before we moved because there was heat tape there, but since I relocated the supply to where it was SUPPOSED to be there is no heat there now. Maybe I'll build a box with insulation and screw it under the belly for now.

Well Spring is coming!!!
Greg

[calderhill]

OK, I guess I'm just lucky. My water supply line comes straight up out of the ground into the closet where the shutoff is and continues as I posted. My heat tape is plugged into the outside GFI receptacle which just happens to be right next to the water pipe. I'm on a slightly sloping lot with the rear only a couple inches off the ground and 70' later, 3' high at the front.